almost ready to try the smog again

[8177]

A tune up, carb rebuild, new vacuum lines, new fuel sending unit and fuel lines have increased the reliability and performance of the CJ. Speed has increased from 55 max to 75 mph. I used an infrared thermometer and measured the inlet and outlet of the cat last night and verified that the cat has restricted flow. Living in California has always been a challenge when modifying a vehicle and even after a successful mod the smog techs still cause people grief. Not their fault though, they are just following state mandates. California has a referee process that must be followed if you want to replace your engine with one not installed in your vehicle when it was built. My originally 4 cyl non California engine was replaced and cleared by a referee station in the late 90's with a 258 from a 77 jeep Cherokee or Comanche. It received a BAR (bureau of automotive repair) Code for the 77 engine. This means that the vehicle now takes on the configuration of a 1977 engine with all the emission controls of that year. The emission controls may not be a mixture of the 77 and 81. Only the 77 components. For some reason the PO before the guy I bought it from was made to or decided to install a 81 block keeping the 77 accessories, carb exhaust manifold etc. he added a cat and an air pump. None the less it is still considered a 77. I have done a bunch of reading and have decided that instead of replacing the cat I can just cut it out. It is not original to the vehicle/engine as mandated by the BAR code. If anyone knows this to be wrong please let me know.
Did 77 non California jeeps come equipped from the factory with the air pump also?
So my timing at the time of the failed smog test last week at 20 deg . I backed it down to 11 for the time being and I know I will need to adjust it after the cat is removed. Will a clogged cat cause the timing to change like that due to the added back pressure or is it a function of bad work on the engine. What should the timing be for a stock 77 distributer? It has an aftermarket cam but I believe it to be configured with a stock grind on the lobes.
After I get the timing done and a little more research for removing the cat instead of replacing it I’m heading to the smog station again. Thanks to everyones help i think this puppy is going to pass. it better the wife wants to drive her new toy
Jim

 

[PoliceMonkey161]

Regardless of year or disposition of the Cat, 20 BDTC at idle is way too much advance. I would think that a clogged converter would cause problems with the vacuum advance at higher RPM's, but thats just me thinking out loud. At an idle of 600-750 RPM's, you will probabley benefit from 8-11 BDTC. Off the top of my head, you would want somewhere in the nieghborhood of 28-35 degrees total timing at 2000-2500 RPM's? Again, I'm just ball parking. You can plot your vacuum curve later down the road if you wish.

 

[8177]

Backing it to 11 made it run som much smoother at Idle and it settled in at 740 or so all by itself when i got it there. I wonder how it even got like that. The hold down was very tight so it didn't just slip around. On eof these days I'll be through with the discovery and learning period and know that all is right. then the next owner down the line can wonder " Why did he do that?"
Jim

 

[8177]

After calling every smog place in town and never getting a definitive answer on the needed equipmet, why cant these guys commit to an answer, I started calling people i knew to see if anyone actually knew a smog tech. i found one and had him ask his friend if I needed a cat. Lo and behold the guy came through and gave him an answer. The BAR sticker will state on it if I need a Cat or not. Why has this been so hard?

 

[8177]

Holy Cow!! No Cat needed. Right there in front of my eyes the whole time. Out comes the saws-all.

 

[8177]

I just cut the cat out and started it running open pipe from where the cat was attached next to the transfer case. The timing mark is all over the place. Do I need to connect the muffler to time it. Vacuum advance is disconnected from the distributer.

 

[PoliceMonkey161]

I just cut the cat out and started it running open pipe from where the cat was attached next to the transfer case. The timing mark is all over the place. Do I need to connect the muffler to time it. Vacuum advance is disconnected from the distributer.

You don't need to connect the muffler to set the timing. You do need to cap/plug the vacuum line to set your vacuum. Once the vacuum line is capped and you set your idle speed, your timing should not be jumping around.

 

[8177]

Well I'll give that a shot tomorrow after work then. Thanks Policemonkey161.
Jim

 

[8177]

Ok I couldn't wait. Plugged the vacuum line that goes to the vac advance and it smoothed out. But instead of the timing mark bouncing all over the place it moved slowly clockwise( looking from the front), all the way around. used some starter fluid spray I sprayed the vac lines. no change till I sprayed under the air cleaner where the fuel line and the vac line connects. It almost killed the engine. what the heck now.

 

[69jeepcj]

Not sure what you mean by the timing mark moving slowly clockwise all the way around. The balancer is turning so it will spin clockwise as the engine is running, but, your timing light should flash every time the #1 plug fires and you should see where the timing mark is, and it should be at the same spot each time the light flashes. You could have the dist hold down bolt too loose and the timing is walking around because the dist is moving as it runs, snug up the hold down bolt a tad. Plug your vac advance line when checking the timing, reconnect after your done. The 20* timing at your last smog test sounds like you had the vac advance hooked up when you checked it if your connected to manifold vac. Manifold vac will have vac at idle, ported will not. Manifold vac will give you a cooler running engine and better throttle response at lower rpms, and better gas milage. Once your timing is set, if you are connected to manifold vac, you idle will rise when you hook the vac line back up, it will not if you are connected to ported vac. Which port is manifold and which is ported? Your carb should have two small ports on it, one under the throttle plate (manifold vac) and one above the throttle plate (ported vac) you can use whichever one you want. Have you installed at new dist?? Just wondering because that would def require a dist recurve after the timing is set.

 

[69jeepcj]

After you set your timing at idle, with vac line still disconnected, rev the motor up to 3000 rpms and see if your timing is between 32-36*, if it is, rev the motor a bit more and see if it go,s higher, it should not. once you know where it stops advancing you can subtract your initial timing figure from you total to find out how much timing is built into your dist, (say your initial is *8 and your total is 36*, 36 minus 8 = 28* your dist would have 28* built into it) You do not want the 32-36* until 2800-3000 rpms or it will probably ping under load. If it is 32-36* bolt down the dist and reconnect your vac line and rev it to 3000 rpms again slowly and see if your timing is between 48-52*, this 48-52* will probably come on before you hit the 3000rpm mark and that's fine, Just DO NOT go over 52* with vac advance hooked up.
So you should look something like this:
initial timing (at the balancer with timing light) 8-10*
dist timing 24* (just guessing)
total timing 32-36*
introduce vac usually around 16-20*, and this is added to your total.
with vac 16-20 = 52-56, 56 is too much and you would have to limit the advance can. we can deal with that when and if the time comes.
For now, Get your initial and total timing set.

 

[8177]

Basically what is happening is every time the #1 plug triggers the timing light the timing mark is about 20 degrees retarded from the last time the light was triggered. The dist is tight. everything was good till i removed the flow restricted cat.I will have to admit that i left the vacuum advance line open when I timed it before but it was rock steady then. Sprayed starter fluid on all the vaccum lines with no increase in idle speed. the only change was when spraying under the breather on front of the carb to test the integrety of the vacuum line (canister line maybe??) next to the fuel line the jeep almost dies. Since I just rebuilt it I would say there is a slight possibility that I may need to go and retighten the screws but its a long shot that I left any lose. I'm curious as to why it almost kills it instead of increasing the idle speed. Now when I spray at this pont some does get on the EGR valve so that might be the issue also, but why does it not pick up rpm.
Jim

 

[greg92jeepxj]

Hey Jim , hope you have overcome the wiring issues of the CJ , if you still have work to do , check out this posting from another forum posted by our member TURBOGUS yesterday :
BASIC WIRING 101 , Getting You Started ! - JeepForum.com
I could not pull up diagrams from this post on my iPad and have not tried on my desktop , will take me too long to try ( computer issues ) and don't have time to for computer maintenance right now to trying. Hope it works and you can pull up wiring diagrams for the CJ .
Have read the posts from policemonkey161 and 69jeepcj and they most certainly will get you going . But yes , please set your initial advance first ; distributor advance vacuum disconnected and vacuum line plugged , EGR vacuum disconnect , vacuum line plugged , disconnect idle speed control if you have one . I believe that may be all that jeep should have for this setting.
Once initial timing is set , you can check advance as advised. If distributor is new when engine was rebuilt , the distributor is supposed to be recurved for the engine it is installed in , generally by the installer but sometimes recurved by application as purchased , but must be checked.
Initial advance , vacuum advance and centrifical advance as advised are next .
If initial timing was set with all previous disconnected and vacuum lines plugged as previous advised and won't hold setting , yes , be certain distributor is locked down tight after initial timing set. If that is not the problem , hoping distributor is proper application for engine . That is totally unlikely , but we need to know if your initial timing setting with distributor hold down locked tight is holding its setting. As long as distributor gear meets cam gear properly and both gears are not damaged this should not happen. The only other cause is a timing chain that the chain has jumped timing. But remotely possible as well since your engine seems to be running fine . But chain jumping time and distributor gear problem can cause timing to change as I don't think your jeep is computer controlled , right ? No , you have vacuum advance and even an ignition module would not change initial timing. Only a computer controlled advance can do that and there would have to be a separate wiring harness like GM has ; a four-wire disconnect for timing adjustment.
Before going further , this must be solved. Also , check air cleaner gasket if missing , damaged or out of place and any vacuum line you may suspect near or on carburetor for the problem you mentioned . Also , I do not know if the 258 has a chain tensioner on the timing chain but I do not think so but these are all the things that could be responsible for the initial timing problem .
if there are more and I did not post them , someone please let Jim know . Thanks you for your posts Jim and very happy for the progress you've made . Your working hard , so sorry Cali are such hard persons to deal with .

 

[8177]

Well I know the air cleaner gasket is bad. So bad in fact that its laying in my yard next to the driveway. I have not got around to buying or making one. Kind of thought it would come with the rebuild kit and it didn't. I don't think any thing has actually happend that would cause any of the timing jump problems. i know that the timing is not wandring all around or eventually the thing would not fire, but somethingis causing and it may be coincidental that it happened after I removed the cat. i have very limited time during the week days after work and I can't spend a lot of quality time with it after i discover something. It may be my timing light for all I know. i'll have to borow my neighbors if I still have the problem. Never heard of disconnecting the EGR Vac. Learn something new every day i come here. Might eventually learn to fix something If I keep listening to you guys. thanks for the link to the wiring. i'll go check it out.
Jim

 

[greg92jeepxj]

Your doing just fine , Jim. But I will speak to governor and ask for a pardon or at least ask him if he can see his way clear to grant one hard working tax payer a pass for his yearly inspection and were sorry its not a hybrid. And if that. Dosent work , i'll tell him i have all his movies on dvd . Hey , Cali laws will drive anyone crazy . with the astringent smog rules , its a wonder anyone has an older car . But who knows that better than you ! Basically , anything that can effect idle or even a slight rpm climb like when you advance distributor and the rpms climb, you do not want anything such as distributor advance , EGR enrichment , idle speed control , anything that effects the idle that can add enrichment superficially while you are trying to set base timing ( initial timing ) to the correct setting. Even NOX from the EGR valve can enrich idle and cause disruption and prevent you from setting timing because the idle becomes unstable ( rough ) . Well , I guess if you suspect the timing gun being faulty , yeah , try another , they do get banged around and don't get any respect . I shouldn't think the catalytic converter removal would cause this , but clogged , yes. if anything , it would let the engine breath better unrestricted when removed, but I understand your point as a decrease in back pressure has effect on smaller engines. But your 258 in my eyes is not small and don't think this is causing it though. The engine runs , does 50 to 75 on the highway so even though I posted all the possibilies I know , I cannot see them being the fault. The engine is rebuilt so it should have a new timing chain set. I would think that is not the issue . If the timing gun borrowed does not satisfy you , try turning engine damper pully to TDC with #1 piston up to verify , and distributor rotor pointing to #1 spark wire. Now , if your comfortable with an old timer trick , turn the damper pully to the correct BTDC timing mark ( 8 or 11 was it ? ) and turn the distributor until the rotor is now over the #1 terminal in the distributor cap as it was when the damper pully was on 0 degrees ( TDC ) and the rotor was pointing to the #1 terminal in the distributor cap. This method has been used by engine builders on first start up when is crucial for engine to start and pump up oil to avoid damage on a dry engine ( no oil circulation ) for the first start up. They swear by it. Tighten distributor so it won't move . It should start and run close or on correct timing. If it dosen't , you can always set it back to TDC and retime it. But it always worked for me when I replaced the distributor after a timing chain job . I know you cannot do this now , but when you have enough time , give it a shot. If you feel the borrowed timing gun is trusty , first try setting the timing the regular way to see what results you get as the engine is in fact running and a little adjusting is not currently harming it . If not satisfactory , try this old timer trick . We must know what's going on as this is strange enough to be categorized as morphadite. Remember . Initial timing can only be properly read at idle with all the items previously mentioned disabled of vacuum and lines plugged and idle speed control disabled too.
this is the only way to truly set base ( initial timing ) timing. Once correctly set, then vacuum advance is checked and then finally mechanical advance is checked . As the engine climbs above idle , the vacuum advance , which draws its signal from a port above the throttle blades advances timing . That must occur at a designated rpm range . After that rpm range is surpassed , the mechanical advance , the centrifical weights the distributor rotor attaches to and is spring loaded takes over. The weights expand outward and advance the timing even more for more advanced timing and spark at higher rpm. All this can be checked once the initial is set correctly.
I apologies if my theory of ignition systems is making you run to the medicine chest for Advil , just hoping to clarify what your objective is . I'm certain you'll accomplish this as you've come very far to date . Believe me , we are proud for you and sorry for the setbacks and disheartening experiences. I do feel bad the misses hasn't enjoyed her new toy as she should too . Hoping to land a CJ in the future so my misses can enjoy the same free spirit as yours . She appreciates a jeep as any adventurous girl would too . Well , I hope this and all the posts from policemonkey161 and 69jeepcj help and get Betsy ( hey , what is your jeeps name ? ) running well soonest . Take a deep breath Jim , your doing ok . I get overwhelmed often but you handle it better than I . Best wishes . Greg.

P.S. - your most welcome for the JeepForum.com post ! Hope you have good luck with it !

 

[8177]

Well Right now the jeeps name isn't allowed on the forum. LOL I think I have it licked though. Not sure what was going on last night but I have every thing ready. the timing does waver by a degree or so. Not going to worry about that right now. Got her up to 83 tonight. Pretty good from a barely able to get to 55 to an 83. It does seem to run just a little rough but that could be me. Going to try the Governor test Friday. he needs his 69 bucks to entertain some dignitary. Thanks everyone for their help. keep your fingers crossed. I'll piddle around with the few vacuum lines I didn't replace. They looked good so I just left them. Until Friday.
Jim

 

[69jeepcj]

glad you got it going and things seem to be ok. You really should check your total timing to make sure it isn't over advancing, this can cause engine damaging detonation that you may not be able to hear by ear. That would be a bummer with a newly rebuilt engine. Just make sure your not over 36* with no vac, and not over 52* with vac. If you get over 52* with vac, then we need to limit the amount of vac advance your can is able to pull at cruise. If you really want to understand timing, I can post a article "TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101" written by John Hinckley and Lars grumsrud who are retired GM engineers that worked with these systems, They know their stuff.

 

[greg92jeepxj]

Yeah Jim , double glad ! But it is very important to follow through with checking all your timing as you do not want an over advance condition which is as detrimental as a lean condition .
As for the rough idle , you can check vacuum at every source to be sure it's tight so all your work and adjustments will be benefitted . You may want to be sure the idle mixture screw are set optimum but we need to be careful there as you still have a emmissions test to pass and that directly affects it. Even after carburetor adjustment , timing needs to be checked. It's a never ending process that is necessary to keep it in tune , but once done right , you will just need to check at every tune up . Good luck tomorrow ! Greg . Special thanks to policemonkey161 and 69jeepcj for all their TLC !

P.S. - hey , you behave yourself out there , 83 mph ! The misses will take that jeep from you and sleep with the keys under her pillow ! LOL just kidding . She must be excited she'll drive her jeep this weekend . Who wouldn't be ! No speeding Jim , promise now . Be a good boy and she'll let you drive it and not just test drives :driving-g

 

[greg92jeepxj]

glad you got it going and things seem to be ok. You really should check your total timing to make sure it isn't over advancing, this can cause engine damaging detonation that you may not be able to hear by ear. That would be a bummer with a newly rebuilt engine. Just make sure your not over 36* with no vac, and not over 52* with vac. If you get over 52* with vac, then we need to limit the amount of vac advance your can is able to pull at cruise. If you really want to understand timing, I can post a article "TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101" written by John Hinckley and Lars grumsrud who are retired GM engineers that worked with these systems, They know their stuff.

Thank you for adding "TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101" as it is a wonderful article ! Makes me renew my respect for big block Ford and old time mechanics who keep younger wrenches in line ! One good reminder is distributor selection , I once read that a good HEI unit is all you need and really never forgot that as its clarified there. Thanks again for your contributions. Greg

 

[8177]

hate to end this thread on a sad note, but i must let every on know. Since I was under the Jeep working on installing a pipe where the cat was, i also just happend to be where the bolts to the gun racks floor mount was. Sniff, she had me take it out. Noooooooooooo!!! don't make me do it. She reminded me that it was Her jeep Her rules. I put it in a safe place, and its one i will remember where its at too. Till i go to look for it.
Jim
And i would like the link to the timing 101. or did you post it and I didn't see it?