almost ready to try the smog again

hate to end this thread on a sad note, but i must let every on know. Since I was under the Jeep working on installing a pipe where the cat was, i also just happend to be where the bolts to the gun racks floor mount was. Sniff, she had me take it out. Noooooooooooo!!! don't make me do it. She reminded me that it was Her jeep Her rules. I put it in a safe place, and its one i will remember where its at too. Till i go to look for it.
Jim
And i would like the link to the timing 101. or did you post it and I didn't see it?

Found the article by googling "TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101" look for the link "460FORD.com" GM engineers.....
Sorry for the bad news , but I know you guys will work it out . She knows you put your heart into her jeep and won't forget.
Everything will go fine and you both will have a wonderful weekend . I'm sure you know what to say ( or not ) , just wondering , is it best to keep silent and just give the appearance your moving on and concentrating on the jeep and not thinking of the gun rack ? Just a thought...... Best wishes and best of luck to you guys , enjoy , we're always here . We'll keep the light on . Greg
 

It may be her jeep , but I know she wants to share it with you . You both will figure out the way it will make you both happy . That's the part I love . Sharing a common interest . One day , she'll let her jeeps pictures be posted when its ready . Looking forward to it . Greg.
 
Already posted a couple of pics she took. The desert camie Jeep one the first post of this thread is hers.
 
TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101
John Hinckley
In this day and age, when modern automotive powertrains are computer-controlled and engines
don’t even HAVE distributors any more, the knowledge of what distributors did and how they
operated to control ignition timing has begun to fade; for those just entering the classic automotive
hobby, the function of the distributor and the notion of “timing” is even more mysterious. To keep
your classic Corvette running reliably and at maximum efficiency, some knowledge about the
principles of spark timing and how it’s controlled is essential. The objective of this article is to demystify
the principles of “spark timing”, and to explain why and how your distributor-equipped
Corvette’s spark timing is controlled and varied to suit changing driving conditions.
I won’t get into the gory details of combustion theory, but let’s understand a little about what
happens as the piston is traveling upward on the compression stroke toward the point where the
spark plug “lights the fire”. Before we light the fire, let’s talk a little about what we’re lighting – the
fuel-air mixture that’s been metered by the carburetor and atomized in the intake manifold as it
heads for each cylinder’s intake valve.
Fuel/Air Mixture and “Burn Rate”: At idle and steady cruising speed, the load on the engine is
low, and the air-fuel mixture is “lean” (more air/less fuel); when accelerating, the load on the
engine is higher, and it’s fed a “rich” air-fuel mixture (more fuel/less air). These are two very
different conditions, as a lean mixture burns relatively slowly, and a rich mixture burns faster.
Remember this distinction – it’s a key factor in ignition timing.
Back in the cylinder, with the piston rising and compressing the air-fuel mixture, the idea is to fire
the spark plug at just the right moment such that the mixture is ignited (starting the “burn”, as the
flame front proceeds across the cylinder) and the rapidly-expanding gases reach peak cylinder
pressure just after the piston reaches TDC (top dead center), exerting maximum force to push the
piston down on the power stroke for maximum efficiency.
Spark Timing: Referring back to the burn rate comparison, slower-burning lean mixtures need to
have the “fire lit” earlier in the compression stroke (because they take longer to reach peak
cylinder pressure) than faster-burning rich mixtures (which take less time to reach peak cylinder
pressure). With either mixture condition, the objective is to reach peak cylinder pressure at exactly
the same point after TDC, which says they have to be “lit” at different points during the piston’s
upward travel – this is what “spark timing” is all about – managing the point at which the spark
plug fires under different operating conditions. This point is expressed as “spark advance”, in
degrees of crankshaft rotation before the piston reaches top dead center; when someone says
their initial timing is set at 10 degrees, that means the distributor is set to fire the spark plugs when
the crankshaft is 10 degrees of rotation before the piston reaches top dead center, which is “10
degrees of advance”. This is the “initial” or “base” spark timing which is checked and set at idle
during a traditional tune-up (with the vacuum advance disconnected); it’s fixed at the point where
it’s set by clamping down the distributor hold-down bolt, and doesn’t change – it’s always there.
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Early Spark Timing: In the days of the simple, low-compression, inefficient Model T, spark
advance was set manually to a fixed level with a lever on the steering column; about all the driver
did was to “retard” (delay) the spark timing while turning the crank to start the engine, then move
the lever to “advance” the spark timing once the engine was running. If the driver forgot to retard
the spark when cranking and left the lever in the advanced position, the engine could “kick back”
while the operator turned the crank to start the engine, which could result in a broken arm (an
unforgettable lesson in spark timing). Once running, the operator could vary the spark advance
with the lever for best performance (such as it was), or just leave it alone (which most operators
chose to do). With that big, low-compression, slow-running, low-powered engine, little damage
could be done by improperly setting the spark advance.
Fast-forward to the 1960’s and high-compression 350-horsepower Corvette engines howling at
6500 rpm; suddenly the spark timing equation is much more complex, and spark timing errors can
result in scattering expensive engine parts all over the street at one extreme, and poor
performance and fuel economy at the other extreme. An automatic device has to recognize the
entire spectrum of operating conditions and manage the complexities of spark timing in a manner
completely independent of, and transparent to, the driver, who has other things to keep him
occupied – like traffic, flashing blue lights in his mirrors, etc.
The Distributor And Advance: This wondrous device that handles all that work is the distributor,
which lives quietly in the dark, at the back of the engine, hidden forever under the Corvette’s
ignition shielding, demanding only an occasional set of points, a condenser, and a rotor to
continue doing its job. Let’s talk about the two different ways the distributor manages spark timing
while you’re watching traffic and grabbing gears – centrifugal advance and vacuum advance.
The centrifugal advance mechanism under the rotor in the distributor advances spark timing
based solely on engine rpm (it’s driven at half crankshaft speed); a pair of weights pivot on pins,
and are retained by little coil springs. The faster the shaft turns, the more the weights tend to pivot
outward (centrifugal force), and the rate at which they move outward is controlled by the tension of
the little springs; lighter springs let them move fully outward at relatively low shaft rpm, and
stronger springs require higher shaft rpm for full outward movement. The pointed “tail” of the
weights, at the pivot end, bear against a cam (called the “autocam”) attached to the top of the
distributor shaft, and as the weights move outward, the 8-sided cam that opens and closes the
contact points (which trigger the coil to fire the spark plugs when the points open) is “advanced” so
it opens the points earlier than when the weights are fully retracted (as they are at idle). In most
distributors, this mechanism provides up to 20-25 (crankshaft) degrees of spark advance when the
weights are fully extended; the maximum advance this system can provide is limited by a bushing
installed over a pin which moves in a slot in the lower plate of the autocam. The system is
designed so that the weights don’t begin to move until slightly above normal idle rpm, so the initial
timing can be set accurately without any influence from the centrifugal advance mechanism.
Centrifugal Advance Calibrations: There are many different calibrations of weight configurations
and spring tensions specified for production Corvette distributors, depending on the performance
level of the engine, manual or automatic transmission, etc. The points between the rpm at which
the weights begin to move and the rpm at which they’re fully extended, providing maximum
advance, is referred to as the “centrifugal advance curve”, which is tailored to each engine
combination. The key point to remember here is that the centrifugal advance mechanism
advances and retards spark timing in response only to engine rpm, and nothing else. Its function
is to advance spark timing as engine rpm increases; as upward piston speed increases with rpm,
3
effectively shortening the time for the compression stroke, the spark has to fire sooner, as the
air/fuel mixture still takes the same amount of time to burn as it does at lower rpm. In effect, the
centrifugal advance mechanism handles only the basic physics of lighting the fire sooner at higher
rpm so peak cylinder pressure is still reached at the same point just after TDC.
Now we have the basic physics handled, but we still need another system to manage spark
advance based on all the variations of driving conditions and engine load variations experienced
in normal operation; this is handled by the vacuum advance system.
Vacuum Advance: The vacuum advance system consists of a vacuum diaphragm mounted on
the distributor body; the diaphragm is spring-loaded in the zero-advance position, and has a rod
which connects to a hole in the breaker plate, which is the movable plate the points are mounted
on. When vacuum is applied to the diaphragm, it pulls on the rod, which in turn pulls on the
breaker plate, rotating it with respect to the 8-sided cam on the distributor shaft which opens and
closes the points. When viewed from the top, the distributor shaft (and the 8-sided cam for the
points) turns clockwise; when the vacuum advance rod pulls on the breaker plate, it rotates the
breaker plate (and the points) counter-clockwise, which “advances” the opening of the points
(which triggers the coil to fire the spark plugs). A typical vacuum advance unit, when fully
deployed, will add about 15 (crankshaft) degrees of spark advance over and above what the
distributor’s centrifugal advance system is providing at the moment, which depends on engine
rpm; they are two independent systems, but they work together to provide the correct amount of
spark advance.
Controlling Vacuum Advance: Let’s look at how the vacuum advance system is controlled.
Referring back again to burn rates, remember that lean mixtures burn slower, and rich mixtures
burn faster. Engine load conditions (idle, steady cruise, acceleration) result in how lean or rich the
air/fuel mixture is (the carburetor handles this), and the best indicator of engine load is intake
manifold vacuum. At idle and steady cruise, engine load is low, and intake manifold vacuum is
high due to the nearly-closed carburetor throttle plates; under acceleration, the throttle plates open
wider, and intake manifold vacuum drops; it is essentially zero at wide-open throttle. As a result,
intake manifold vacuum is a “free” indicator of engine load, which correlates nicely with fuel
mixture being supplied – lean mixture at high vacuum, and rich mixture at low vacuum.
At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire the lean (and exhaust-diluted)
idle fuel/air mixture earlier in the cycle in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the
proper point after TDC for efficiency, so the vacuum advance unit is activated by the high manifold
vacuum, and adds another 15 degrees of spark advance on top of the fixed initial timing setting.
For example, if your initial timing is set at 10 degrees, at idle it’s actually 25 degrees with the
vacuum advance connected (a properly-calibrated centrifugal advance mechanism will not have
started to move yet at idle rpm).
The same thing occurs under steady highway cruise conditions; the mixture is lean, takes longer
to burn, the load on the engine is low (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph) and
the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance unit is again deployed, and adds 15 degrees
of spark advance over and above whatever the distributor centrifugal advance mechanism is
providing at that engine rpm. If you had a timing light connected so you could see it as you cruise
down the highway, you’d see about 45-50 degrees of spark advance; your fixed initial advance of
10 degrees, 20-25 degrees provided by the centrifugal advance mechanism, and the 15 degrees
added by the vacuum advance unit.
4
When you accelerate, the fuel/air mixture is immediately enriched (by the accelerator pump,
power valve, metering rod piston, etc.), and that rich mixture now burns faster, doesn’t need the
additional spark advance any more, and when the throttle plates open, the manifold vacuum
drops, and the vacuum advance unit diaphragm retracts to its zero position, “retarding” the spark
timing back to what is being provided at that moment by the fixed initial timing and the centrifugal
advance mechanism. The vacuum advance doesn’t come back into play until you back off the gas
and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture
again becomes lean and needs more spark advance for fuel efficiency.
Vacuum Advance Calibration: There are also many different calibrations of vacuum advance
units; some begin to deploy at different vacuum levels than others, and some provide more
degrees of advance when fully deployed than others. The original calibration was selected based
on the intake manifold vacuum characteristics of that particular engine/transmission combination
and how it was expected to perform in daily use. Vacuum advance units were connected to full
manifold vacuum for decades; in the late 60’s and early 70’s, when emissions began to become
an issue, many were instead connected to “ported” or “timed” vacuum sources. We’ll discuss this
aberration a little later.
The Advance Combination: Now we have two different advance systems working independently,
but complementing each other, to manage spark timing – centrifugal, based on engine rpm, and
vacuum, based on engine load and operating conditions. The centrifugal advance system is
purely mechanical and is only rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except engine rpm. Vacuum
advance, on the other hand, responds instantly to to engine load and rapidly-changing operating
conditions, providing the correct amount of spark advance at any point in time, to deal with both
lean and rich mixture conditions.
By today’s engine management terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a
good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with
absolutely zero negative effect on wide-open throttle performance, as the vacuum advance is
inoperative under that condition. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those
sensor inputs to the computer change both spark timing and fuel/air mixture 50 to 100 times per
second, and we don’t even have a distributor any more – it’s all electronic.
“Ported” Vacuum: Now to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-”ported” vacuum aberration.
After 30-plus years of controlling vacuum advance systems with full manifold vacuum, that “free”
indicator of engine load and fuel mixture, along came early emission control requirements (seven
years before catalytic converter technology was introduced), and all manner of crude band-aid
systems were introduced to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust
stream. One of these crude, but effective systems was GM’s Air Injection Reactor (A.I.R.) system,
which pumped fresh air into the exhaust ports to “afterburn” pollutants in the exhaust manifolds.
The key to making this system work at maximum efficiency was retarded spark at idle; with
retarded idle spark timing, the “burn” begins late, and is not complete when the exhaust valve
opens, which does two things which were important for emissions. The incomplete burn reduced
combustion chamber temperatures, which reduced the formation of oxides of nitrogen (NOX), and
the significant increase in exhaust gas temperature ensured rapid light-off and combustion of the
hydrocarbons in the exhaust gas stream when the fresh oxygen-carrying air was introduced from
the air pump.
5
Side Effects: As a result, these engines ran poorly, and an enormous amount of wasted heat
energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to “run hot”
at idle; cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down
the drain, and fuel economy went down with it. “Ported Vacuum” was easy to implement – they
just moved the distributor vacuum port orifice in the carburetor from below the throttle plate (where
it was exposed to full manifold vacuum) to above the throttle plate, where it was only exposed to
manifold vacuum after the throttle plate opened. This meant that the vacuum advance was
inoperative at idle (retarding idle spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also
had very low initial timing settings; they were usually set at 4 degrees before TDC or less, and
some even had initial timing settings as much as 2 degrees after TDC. The vacuum advance still
worked at highway cruise, but not at idle, which caused all manner of problems. “Ported Vacuum”
was strictly an early pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more. Don’t believe
anyone who tells you that ported vacuum is a good thing for performance and driveability – it’s
not. Anyone with a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing
idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don’t
understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it’s for. There are lots of long-time
experienced mechanics who don’t understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance
either, so they’re not alone.
Summary: Now that we’ve covered the whys and hows of spark timing and its control systems,
you can appreciate what’s going on underneath your ignition shielding and how it affects
performance and driveability. Checking the operation of the centrifugal and vacuum advance
systems during periodic maintenance and tune-ups can pay real dividends that you can feel in the
seat of your pants. Well, you say, “how do I do that?” Tune in next month, when we’ll show you
how to check out those systems, how to “map” your advance curves against their design
specifications and verify proper operation, and pass along some simple tips and techniques for
improving your Corvette’s performance by “tweaking” its advance systems for peak efficiency.
 

Hope that helps you, they have a few other articles too. If you google corvette restoration.com their is a list of the articles they have wrote, there is a few others there written by others but I didn't read them because they weren't what I was looking for.
 
Well. Even though the numbers were better they were not good enough. Not sure what's going to happen now. depends on the PO. I think a Fuel Inj is going to be in order. which ones are Calif approved and reliable without breaking the bank. Hell If the Po does not want to go that route I may have to get my money back. So sad.
 
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I feel sorry that such a nice jeep must suffer these consequences for Cali law. Wondering what a recycler would want for 4.0 manifold set up and electrical from manifold to O2 to convert . You've already went through so much already but if there is proof that someone already made this swap and achieved passing results , it would pay off . Hoping your heart is still in it . Really hoping for an easier way too . Greg
 

Not sure what the manifold set up and electrical from manifold to O2 set up is. I have a 2 (V) manifold with a ton of EGR stuff all over it in reserve for them telling me to go with something else. A FI is allowed as long as it has a CARB sticker with it and I still don't have to put on a cat. this was about all I could get out of the tech. I'll post a pic of the manifold and stuff
 

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Sorry if I confused you , but something like a jeep cherokee or grand w/4.0 MPFI to include the manifold w/injectors & throttle body , complete engine wiring harness and PCM to make a complete fuel injection system . Wondering what it would cost at a auto recycler. As much as I like carburetors , a fuel injection system would be nice if it will keep the engine in the HC/CO & NOX parameters , not to mention CARB. If it were not the price of your first born and can keep that CJ in your hands , could be worth it.
 
Well the problem is in the PRK is that if I go with a FI that has the CARB approval I'm good to go. If I Mod the engine with later year parts I have to make the engine just like what it came out of and then take it to a referee station. These guys are hard and if its not perfect I have to do it over. Notoriously hard to pass and you have to catch them on a good day.
 

It sounds as though they expect you to swap in a whole 4.0 litre which just takes you back to square one . I know that's is not going to happen so I guess theyre forcing a new plan.
Trying to imagine if it would help to use a smaller carburetor that would produce less emmissions . Now it seems we need to know of someone has satisfied CARB with 258 and what they did to to do so . The only thing I know of is to sake a diagnostic shop if they could tune it within specs to satisfy CARB whether that be to retime the engine and readjust the carburetor accordingly to lower emmissions . I'm sure your not the first person to have to get a carburetor to work well and satisfy the emmissions part of the test . It seems more research is needed . Greg
 
Well I don't have a diagnostic shop around. If I swap a carb it has to be a stock carb for a 77. I asked him this hoping to get a 2150 to put on it. And I have pulled the Intake assy getting ready to pull the head to check the valves and see if I can just add new rings. A fuel injection kit with a CARB sticker will work. That's how I'm going. I have to get everything apart fast though. I'm going in for lower Back surgery on the 15th, unless they go for a week after that due to scheduling. I'll be down for 3 months after that and moving pretty slow for a while after that. I can try to supervise my son but turning wrenches isn't his thang. I'll try to take the head off tomorrow after work. If my son isn't working we'll get it off. I have an email to Crower Cams to see if its feasible to time that puppy to 6 deg and still pass the test.. BTW what is that little flapper valve in the exhaust manifold.

Any FI kits besides the Howell and the mopar kit. Not going with the Mopar kit. don't want to buy a harmonic balancer.
 
Wishing you best of luck on the procedure . Got five bad discs in my lower back from a car accident back in 2007 and two in my neck but so far hanging in there . Will be thinking about you . If need be , your son is more than welcome to post if he needs to just if you are resting and cannot be available sometimes. Just until your better . But I think he'll do just fine. Hoping all goes well with the plans for the rebuild as well . Best of luck in all . Greg
 

Thanks Greg, The doc replaced two disc's in my neck two years ago. Still have full range of motion.
My son will post if needed.
Jim
 
Your more than welcome Jim . God bless and I know you got a good doc looking out for you .
glad to hear your fully serviceable. Won't be long your son will be handling that torque wrench.
He'll do fine . Fearless like his dad. We'll get 'er done. Will make his mom proud. Greg
 
He helped me do the top end on my 86 ford diesel. man what a nasty job. He would rather chase girls and hang with his buddies. I mean why do that when you have motors to work on. LOL
 

Yeah right ? Go figure ! These kids today , I don't know what has gotten into this generation ! When I was his age , I ....... Double LOL !!!!! I know all will be fine . I'm certain he will find this job much cleaner . Easier too !
 
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