Stalling

[Sound_Man]

1072717

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum/board but not new to jeeps. I just picked up an 88 XJ for the super low price of $200! Here is a picture of it.

It needs a paint job and needed a basic tune up and seemed to run great with one exception. It sometimes stalls when at idle and will not restart for about 5 to 10 minutes. I have replaced all of the relay's, fuses, the CPS, fuel, air, and oil filter, cap and rotor, plugs and wires. Unplugging the CPS and plugging it back in does not work on it. Any suggestions?
I have ordered the 4.5" long arm kit from RockKrawler and will get a set of 32" shoes for it as soon as I get it all together then paint it.
I forgot to mention that the fuel rail never looses preasure and the fuel pump is pumping away when it dies. It just does not get a spark. I am thinking that it is the computer but I am not sure. :-?

edited by: Sound_Man, Jun 23, 2003 - 08:43 AM[addsig]

 

[XJNick]

1072731

Welcome. If there's one thing I like about the '88 model year, its trying to figure out if the parts I'll need are made for the '87 or '89 model year :roll: :-D.

When your Jeep dies, is it like someone has turned off the ignition switch (dies instantly)? or does it kind of sputter and die? Does it always die after the same amount of run time? Maybe the IAC motoris malfunctioning or the IAC passages are dirty and cutting off the idle air supply.

-Nick

edited by: XJNick, Jun 23, 2003 - 11:27 AM[addsig]

 

[Sound_Man]

1072754

I know what you mean about not knowing which manual to use. I have started making my own. It will be usefull for me as long as I own this xj or for the next owner if I ever sell it. It is heavily illustrated and in .pdf format. I will make it available to the public once I get a little more of it put together.
Any other 88 xj owners that want to help out with this please let me know.

It dies instatly like the key is turned off. The time varies, some days it does not die at all other days it will die three or four times. I am using it as a daily driver now just to figgure out all of it's bugs. [addsig]

 

[MudderChuck]

1072763

I´ve got an 88 XJ also with a list of gremlins, but fairly low mileage, just neglected.
On my wifes old 87, the EGR valve would stick occasionally. It would usually die at a stop or when driving slowly around a corner. Also had it crap out on me, when the pick-up cables to the distributor rubbed through and shorted. Found on numerous occasions, wet or corroded cable connectors, inside of the plug, had gotten wet and turned white or green. The ICM or the coil is always suspect, but never did go bad in the 87 for the 15 years it lasted (crashed). Never had any trouble from the computer. Had trouble telling sometimes, wether the computer was running open loop or closed loop, always seemd kind of primitive (mostly preprogrammed responses).
My 88 seems to want to crap out at 2200 RPM´s in high gear (converter locked). I drove around with a fuel pressure gauge, hooked up for a few days (tied to the windshield wiper) pressures where within tolerance, Usually seems to want to miss at about 5 inches of vacumn (vacumn gauge also tied to the windshield wiper). Above 2200 it seems to do OK, but you can feel it´s missing a little umph. Below 2200 in lower gears it´s pretty much a rocket. I could use some imput, other than the obvious tune up stuff.
Found a wireing harness, that ran from the front of the fuel rail, to the engine temp, knock sensor and 02 sensor that ran a little too close to the exhaust and was kind of crispy.
Disconnected the MAP sensor, when the motor was idleing (just to see what would happen) motor died right fast. The ballast resistor on the drivers side, inside hood ledge, is for the fuel pump. Looks like, almost the exact same used, in some early Dodge igniton systems (to the coil) that would fail or act up periodically.
Keep us posted and any input into my problems would be appericiated

edited by: MudderChuck, Jun 23, 2003 - 09:07 PM[addsig]

 

[Sound_Man]

1072772

I have removed, flushed out, dried and replaced all of the vacuum/air lines. None were very dirty at all. Much less than I expected for 190K miles on it. There was not enough in any of them to block or slow the air down. Not even from blow-by from the valve cover! I could not believe that line was clean. It has not died again but I need to give it a day or two. If it does the EGR valve is next on the list.
Chuck how many miles are on your 88? When did you last replace the catalytic converter? I worked on a tj with the 4.0l injected 6 and it did the exact same thing that you have described. Replaced the converter and the muffler (both were clogged badly) and the problem went away. Also, what altitude are you at? I am in the mountains in Colorado. This makes a lot of stuff (sensors) go nuts in these older models if they are flakey at all and on occasion the ECM gets lost with the mixture.
[addsig]

 

[MudderChuck]

1072948

Had less than 100,000 on it when I bought it last year. I´m waiting for a set of plugs (nobody has the right ones), and then I´m going to do a good compression test and maybe a leak down test on the valves. Slowly but surely, returning it to stock condition. Have some brake issues and some other things to get done first. But your muffler/cat tip, sounds like something for the near future. The cat is original, the muffler looks like it was borrowed from a tractor.
The heavy miss or crossfire, kinda gets on the nerves. Seems to only do it, at a certain RPM, 2200, with partial/steady throttle, while in high gear. When pushing a lot of air or going up a minor hill at slower speeds, but again at about the same RPM, in lower gears. It just seems like it craps out for a second or few. Compression seems a little low, but well within tolerance in the couple of cylinders I´ve tested, 130-140.
I´m going to change the plugs, have already tested the cables.
Have you ever heard of the timing chain lossening up in the 4 liter? I haven´t, but the problem seems like it may be a timing issue, valve or distributor (ignition).
I´m gonna change the cat and muffler and do a good tune-up, check out the basic mechanics of the motor, before I look at anything exotic. Maybe a lift and duration check might be worthwhile on the cam and rockers, I´ve got a dial gauge I rarley use.
I live in a river valley and rarley get higher than a few thousand feet of altitude.

The next time you take your XJ for a decent drive, give the old coil the finger test. Shouldn´t be hot enough to burn your finger, but pretty warm, not blister hot. Havn´t seen any of mine, act up, but heard stories, the first few years the 4 liter XJ came out. Any kind of after market condensor, in the ignition system, needs to be removed. Clean out the inside of the distributor, blow it out with air, rust dust or worse, moisture, sure can´t be helpful.

Thanx for the imput.[addsig]

 

[Sound_Man]

1073105

The vacuum/air line cleaning didn’t fix it and neither did the EGR valve. The distributor is clean and there is a new rotor and cap. The coil didn’t ever get hot or even really very warm. I borrowed the computer out of a buddies 88’ and put it in mine just to check and see if that is the problem and it died almost right away with all of the same problems it had before. Basically there was no change with a known good computer. I really do not want to replace the harness but it looks like that is what it is getting down to. Any other suggestions before I rip all the wire out would be great![addsig]

 

[XJNick]

1073134

Does the cherokee have a standard transmission? The reason I ask is Jeep conveniently placed the Clutch Master Cylinder directly above the Fuseblock main connector. Every time my clutch master cylinder has gone out, it has poured fluid all over (and into) the fuseblock :-O.

Remove the small bolt on the backside of the fuseblock connector (that's under the hood), pull apart the connector, spray it with a can of good electrical connector cleaner, let it dry before energizing. Even if this doesn't solve the problem, your electrical system will work much better.

Also, Have you checked the relays under the hood? There is a fuel pump relay, B+ Latch relay, 02 sensor heater relay, & Starter relay. Any of these could be loose or bad and failing to keep latched. See which of these have power before it dies vs. which lose power after it dies. Also, see if any of the relays are abnormally hot.

Might also want to se if the ground connections at the engine block & body are tight.

Good Luck
-Nick

edited by: XJNick, Jun 25, 2003 - 11:52 AM[addsig]

 

[Sound_Man]

1073137

It is an automatic transmission.
I have replaced all of the relay's under the hood and under the dash.
I have not checked to see if any are not getting power when it fails to start again. I will check that next.
This may sound really screwey but where are the grounds for the block to the frame supposed to be? :-? There is a ground strap going from the block close to the transmission on the pass. side to the firewall.

Thanks

edited by: Sound_Man, Jun 25, 2003 - 11:28 AM[addsig]

 

[XJNick]

1073166

The Block to Frame ground is bolted on the rear passenger side of the engine block and goes to the frame right where the Charcoal Canister is. I think you found it. The negative battery cable should be attached to the block. Also, Have you checked if the ignition switch is working properly? Might be a loose contact in the switch.

-Nick[addsig]

 

[MudderChuck]

1073406

Have heard some bad things said about the C101 connector, above the master cylinder. Jeep made a change in 89, because they had so much trouble out of it. Might be something to look at. There are some write up´s about it at the NAXJA site. Also mentioned at Alldata as something to look closely at.[addsig]

 

[Sound_Man]

1074025

This is going to sound really strange but if it leads anyone to think of anything that could be the cause please make a post.
When it stalls or dies and will not start again a good toot on the horn does something and it starts back up. I thought it might be a fluke the first time it happened but I can repeat this action any time it stalls and will not start and it starts right back up.
Does the ignition share a ground with the horn switch in the steering column or possibly a hot wire?
[addsig]

 

[XJNick]

1074039

That's not too strange, in fact it may be leading you to the solution. The horn runs off a relay. The horn relay power input goes to both the relay coil and the relay "hot" leg. This power source comes directly from the ignition switch in the ACC or RUN position. When you push the horn switch, you are grounding the relay coil. it is possible the contacts in the ignition switch are corroded and drawing more current across them creates enough of a connection to start the car. Check the ignition switch, if its arcing it could start a fire.

-Nick

edited by: XJNick, Jun 30, 2003 - 04:29 PM[addsig]

 

[Sound_Man]

1074704

I have the lift and the tires on it now. I am pretty sure the stalling problem is in the ignition switch. I had to order it from the dealer and it should be here on Monday.
Here is a picture of it now.

edited by: Sound_Man, Jul 05, 2003 - 03:41 AM[addsig]

 

[XJNick]

1074707

Looks good Sound man! I'm still in the process of installing my lift. I'll be interested to hear if the ignition switch solves your problems.

-Nick[addsig]

 

[Sound_Man]

1074741

I really hope it does solve it. If not I am going to have to submit and turn it over to the dealer. I hate to do that because it is so inconsistant and they charge by the hour. I have gone for a couple days with no stalling/starting problems and then other days it is every 5 minutes.[addsig]

 

[woody-wagon]

1074791

I had a very simaler problem. I changed the in line fuel filter which costs about $13.00 at NAPA Auto Parts. The fuel filter is located under your jeep, behind the drivers side rear tire. It is very simple and takes about 20 mins. If this doesn't work, try replacing the fuel lines, they may be clogged.

If you decide to change your fuel filter: Take your gas cap off to relieve tank pressure, cut the top off of a a 1 gallon milk jug at the widest point in diameter to catch about 2 cups of gasoline. Hope this helps.

Matt
1991 Jeep Cherokee Briarwood L6 4.0L
132,000 miles


edited by: woody-wagon, Jul 05, 2003 - 08:48 PM[addsig]

 

[Sound_Man]

1075104

The ignition switch did not fix it. :-(
I am begining to think that one of the new parts I put in is bad.
[addsig]

 

[MudderChuck]

1075734

If it isn´t the power side of the system, maybe like mentioned before, it´s the ground side. Many of the systems are grounded through a splice (numerous wires spliced together and grounded through a single wire). Don´t know about your specific problem, but have found on numerous occasions, that when a ground is faulty, the current will try to ground backwords through another relay or switch causing multiple failures. There are sub system grounds to the bottom of the dash on the left side above the cuortesy light, behind the kick panel on the drivers side and other numerous locations.
Intermittant problems will drive a sane person nuts, I´ve often kept a ohm meter handy and started troubleshooting on the road side, when a system crapped out. Don´t touch anything (or even shake the Jeep) and check for power at all major connectors and then work back to sub systems. Don´t forget about the starter relay (usually really corroded inside) which will kill ignition spark quick.
Connectors are alsways suspect, like the MAP sensor connector, the four wire connector near the relay block/ignition coil, the distributor connector among others.
Had a frayed cable (major) under the drivers side carpet, that gave me no end of trouble, until I finally found out where multiple systems where shorting out (through the moisture in the carpet to ground and each other).
Try switching the relays around in the relay block, in the engine compartment and see if the problem doesn´t change. The di-electric grease smeared all over the bottom of the relais, has always made me a little nervous.
Might try an ohm test through your fuel pump, as compared to a healthy one. There is a bi-metal in the windings (works like a fuse) that will shut down the fuel pump, if it overheats. As will a fualty balast resistor.[addsig]

 

[mburian02]

1075795

i am not an expert but the cherokee i just bought had a similar problem,
when i would take the rpms up the let it drop back down to an idle it would just die i found that the cat was severly plugged, just an idea if the ignition doesn't fix it :-D [addsig]